Ep. 104: Julia Harding, MW on the Oxford Companion to Wine and Working with Jancis Robinson

For this episode of the Vint Podcast,  Billy Galanko and Brady Weller (in a nod to the wild events at OpenAI recently) let AI write the following episode description:

We are thrilled to have the esteemed wine writer, Julia Harding, MW, co-author of the Oxford Companion to Wine, grace our episode. She unveils her journey from linguistics to mastering the world of wine and her close collaboration with the legendary Jancis Robinson. Julia also gives us an exclusive behind-the-scenes look at the making of the fifth edition of the Oxford Companion to Wine, discussing everything from their meticulous selection process to the impact of climate change on emerging wine regions.

Pull up a chair and join us as we recount a weekend filled with delightful wine escapades and quirky anecdotes, complete with a Seinfeld-inspired solution to maintain trouser pleats. More than just a humorous retelling, we also share some handy wine tips such as how to savor a bottle over time courtesy of a Coravin. And if you're a fan of Irish cream in your coffee, you're in for a treat.

Link to purchase the Oxford Companion to Wine.

Enjoy!

The Vint Podcast is a production of the Vint Marketplace, your source for the highest quality stock of fine wines and rare whiskies. Visit www.vintmarketplace.com.

Cheers!

Past Guests Include: William Kelley, Peter Liem, Eric Asimov, Bobby Stuckey, Rajat "Raj" Parr, Erik Segelbaum, André Hueston Mack, Emily Saladino, Konstantin Baum, Landon Patterson, Heather Wibbels, Carlton "CJ" Fowler, Boris Guillome, Christopher Walkey, Danny Jassy, Kristy Wenz, Dan Petroski, Buster Scher, Andrew Nelson, Jane Anson, Tim Irwin, Matt Murphy, Allen Meadows, Altan Insights, Tim Gaiser, Vince Anter, Joel Peterson, Megan O'Connor, Adam Lapierre, Jason Haas, Ken Freeman, Lisa Perrotti-Brown, Skyler Weekes, Mary Gorman McAdams, Nick King, Bartholomew Broadbent, Nick Jackson, Dillon Sykes, Mark Bell, David Keck, John Szabo, Channing Frye, Jay Hack, Julia Harding, Austin Hope, Michael Minnillo, Jermaine Stone, Jim Madsen, Santiago Archaval, Tom Smith, Sebastian Lowa, Matthew Crafton, Tony Parker, Andrew Caillard, Mike Veseth, Madeline Puckette, John Olney, Matthew Kaner, Amelia Singer, Chess Martin, and more!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

You're listening to the Vint Podcast, where we bring you interviews and stories from around the world of wine and spirits, from winemakers and critics to sommeliers and masters stillers. We'll explore the people and businesses who are instrumental in shaping the future of today's food and drinks culture. Enjoy the show. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Vint Podcast. My name is Brady, joined in the studio by Billy Galenco. Billy, we're both wearing for those who are listeners on YouTube, we're both wearing like a pleated sweater, quilted, if you will. Quilted, yeah, would I say.

Speaker 2: 0:36

pleated, yeah that's not right Quilted.

Speaker 1: 0:39

Quilted sweater. Pleated pants quilted sweater. That's actually funny. On the pleated side Was watching episode of Seinfeld the other day. Do you know Seinfeld?

Speaker 3: 0:49

I've heard of it, yes it's oh, you've heard of it.

Speaker 1: 0:51

Okay, the one where Kramer learns from the conductor how to not get a crease in your pants and how to keep the pleat in your pants before you're like going to a nice event. You just take them off and you hang them up on a hanger and so you lounge around in your underwear until you're ready to go, so the pleat doesn't go in the pants.

Speaker 3: 1:10

We're continuing the theme that you're younger than me, but you know more older things than I do, so that's interesting.

Speaker 1: 1:17

Older wine preferences. Older TV show preferences Nice.

Speaker 3: 1:24

Well, how was your weekend? You have anything unique or interesting to drink.

Speaker 1: 1:29

Let's see. Had some whiskeys, what were you drinking? I fairly talked about whiskey too much on the podcast. It's just what. I've been drinking more because my wife's pregnant and so there's a higher cost to opening a bottle and not having someone to drink the drink of whiskey, so I've been drinking more whiskeys.

Speaker 1: 1:46

Of course, that is a good ad for Corivan. I should be using my Corivan a little bit more, getting a glass of wine out of my closed bottles. But actually, yeah, I wouldn't talk about the whiskeys I had I picked up some Irish cream. I've been wanting Irish cream for my coffee for a while now. Haven't pulled a trigger. Picked up a little bottle $14. Keeps in your fridge for six months. Really delightful way to end an evening Nice, nice.

Speaker 3: 2:16

All right. Well then, I'll talk about mine a bit. I've had a red wine little adventure this weekend. It wasn't a goal, but it ended up being the result, so I did use my Corivan one evening. I actually have been Corvining the farm, the big game that they set me over a long period of time.

Speaker 3: 2:33

Yeah, that was really good. It's shown well every time. It's a perfect wine to Corvin too, because a little bit of air gets in over time Corvining, but it's just been allowing it to develop nicely since I've been drinking it, so it's been great. I've had a glass every weekend of the show. But then following that we went to a newer well, it's not newer, but new to me wine and cheese and tin fish establishment downtown here in LA and it's interesting.

Speaker 3: 3:01

It's called Kipperd K-I-P-P-E-R-E-D and I had heard about it originally on Marketplace on NPR I know you mentioned you might not listen before. Our listeners basically in the morning, say in the evenings, but in the evenings NPR has a segment called Marketplace. The host is Kiver's doll. He's actually based here in LA and part of what they do is like a small business segment. They interview people throughout the country who are just trying to make it on a small business and this lady had come on a couple of times. She's a cheese monger. She was originally in this kind of it's called Grand Central Market. It's basically a place with like food stalls and she had been there for a while with DTLA cheese and then when the pandemic came downtown LA took a little step back in terms of like, vibrancy and population, and a lot of stores had to close. So she had the opportunity to make that a standalone the cheese shop, a standalone shop which is now DTLA cheese shop. And then next door they opened this Kipperd which is also serviced by the cheese shop. So they have cheese from the cheese shop but then they focus on tin fish and sparkling wine as well as other still wines. So I'd heard about it months ago. I think I mentioned it to Mei Yi at the time. She was really not into going down to downtown. It's gotten much. It's bounced back really well from COVID since then. So we were down there and it was really cool. The owner she basically worked. She was behind the counter helping us like, describe, like the wine and the cheese. I think her husband was also there. We also used the co-owner and it was really cool.

Speaker 3: 4:27

I had wine wise started out with a chilled dolce to, which is one of those grapes from pia monte. That's a nice, easy drinking and sometimes they can be very simple. This one was really unique and complex to me. As much as a dolce to can be, there was some depth to it, so it was actually nice, even as it warmed up. And then I had a lambrusco as well, which was a hundred percent Robert Robert T grapes, which is interesting to me. That's not one of the more common lambrusco varieties, so that was cool. Also, it was like what you would think of a quality lambrusco is dark cherries. It wasn't, wasn't too light but had a nice acid backbone.

Speaker 3: 5:05

And then one wine that I had that you might find interesting. I can't remember the producer, maybe I'll look it up real quick, but it was a dry creek like 2018 or 2019 wine that was made in a very dry creek style. It was in. I think it had some cab. There was another variety I'm blanking on right now, but it was 15-6 alcohol, which was quite the big boy. You say it was Zinfandel. Mostly it was a majority. The first grape they listed was Zinfandel. It was like Zinfandel cab and something else that could have been petite sorrel or something like that. It was a giant wine but it was a few years old and we had it when we had the cheese. And I also asked her and I got a half pour. I didn't have to drink a whole glass of 15.6% alcohol, but it was really neat because she was able to explain the.

Speaker 3: 5:53

That time we had gotten some cheese. We had a goat milk or goat cheese and a sheep's cheese with these interesting pairings and bread. But she was able to explain to me the cheese on or us On such a complex level. I realized now it was the same level of stuff that I explained wine to people on. We started here and then we slowly and then we were reaching the bounds of what I even comprehended. But I loved it because she was just so passionate about it. I was learning left and right. Then, luckily, she said they were going to have cheese classes where they explain more of the process and how they end up the way they do in January. It was a really cool experience. The wines paired really well with the cheese. Obviously the cheese was great.

Speaker 3: 6:32

Did you have any fish? Not this time, no, we may have actually had tin fish earlier in the day the week. So she said tin fished out. It tends to be more her thing than mine, the tin fish.

Speaker 3: 6:43

One thing that was cool about the cheese one was from Indiana and I was like how do you like, how do you source this cheese? Clearly you're here because they are cheese conference she's yes, there was a cheese conference. I met this lady that she's oh yeah, of course there's a conference for everything. Then she went on to tell us about how this lady was like the OG master or boss of American cheese really brought cheese into its own over the past 40 years, but she's still alive. So she's like yeah, I got to actually meet the legends. So basically I'll picture like Mundawee back in the day right after he found this whole thing, and if you could just go right now and he's still just walking around exclaiming what's created about Napa Valley. She's basically the same thing. So I thought that was a really cool story as well that she gets to meet her American cheese icons.

Speaker 1: 7:28

LA's got to be the only city in the country where you could open a wine, cheese and tin fish shop downtown and survive.

Speaker 3: 7:38

There in like Brooklyn, probably Maybe in.

Speaker 1: 7:41

Brooklyn. Yeah, I'm just thinking the New Yorkers would be like no on that.

Speaker 3: 7:46

Well, you'd be interested. I mean, I don't know exactly what downtown LA is not as poppin' as you would think. It's not like the hotspot to go. Normally it's coming back and there's a lot of really good food places down there, but this one was actually on the corner of a little less. It's like there was a building that was like getting instructed and I actually used to go to this planet fitness when I first moved here. I would take the train downtown because I was still trying to pretend like I lived in like New York or elsewhere, but I'd walk by this corner and it was always. It was like a maybe grilled cheese place where the cheese place is now, but it wasn't that amazing and it wasn't that highly trafficked back then. Otherwise I would have noticed this place. So I think they got into the right time. I think that person couldn't stay afloat during the pandemic and they got in at a good time for pricing. But I'm excited and it was a great atmosphere. It was really well designed. So anybody in LA, go to Kippurud or follow them at getkippurud on Instagram. That was great.

Speaker 3: 8:36

And then, to round out my weekend, we ended up going to Korean barbecue with some friends. That was cool. We didn't have any wine there, but we did go back to our buddy's house he's also a Somoei and we had some quality Mencia from Ribeira Sacra, which was really neat. It was the perfect balance of Mencia that was basically like earthy, but also still some nice fruit coming through. So it was nice and balanced, good acid. I highly recommend anybody check out Mencia. Is there a great value? And then ended with well, had this probably interspersed with a Korean whiskey that was still labeled soju on the bottle.

Speaker 3: 9:11

Soju is like their distilled spirit, like a rice spirit right Typically, but it turns out and I had been watching a video before we actually went to K-barbecue that you could well during number one during the Korean war and in other times of hardship, they had to ration rice. Soju started being made from sweet potatoes and some other things anything that basically is starch and apparently a long time ago, according to this website, it was also made by wheat, like 100% wheat sometimes. So I look at this thing and he called it a whiskey and I was like, are you sure it says soju? But I looked at the bottle it was called hold on, I have it here.

Speaker 3: 9:50

Jin-mec Soju Poets Rock and I was like, oh, it says 100% wheat. And then it was barrel age for three years as well. So it literally followed all the requirements to become a whiskey and it was really cool. It was almost kind of spicy, in the same way that some of the rice that you and I have chatted about in our. It definitely had that spicy, almost citrus note that like a high wheat bourbon might. So that was really cool.

Speaker 1: 10:14

Nice yeah. What are the wine pairings for Korean barbecue? Is it like Tokai and Oak Chardonnay? I?

Speaker 3: 10:23

don't know if you'd add the Tokai in there. I mean maybe dried Tokai, it's something high acid. I think I would pair potentially Riesling. I guess Tokai maybe was the spice I was just saying the cream it's not spicy.

Speaker 3: 10:34

No, they didn't need you have spiciness. But I mean, if you're going to a traditional place, they have beer and soju and that's what you drink, okay, so sparkling you could, oh yeah, I mean that would be nice too. I've just I've never seen a Korean barbecue place that also has wine. I mean I'm sure they exist, but like the ones that we go to are very traditional and I like that. Like our buddy is Korean and he can order and he knows everything that like the right stuff to get. So we always go with him or at least I always go with him and he always gets the right stuff. So I do whatever he says to do.

Speaker 1: 11:08

Sounds like you found your business partner there's a market demand. You have an expert on the other side and you can add the wine.

Speaker 3: 11:15

Well, he actually wants to open up a he's. He worked in wine for a long time, as in New York and out here in the hospitality section, so he actually wants to open like a wine and cheese place in the OC where he lives. More he's been trying to convince me to do that with him and I'm like, oh, I don't really want to work or run a shop, but it sounds like a great idea. And I told him about Kipper and he's.

Speaker 3: 11:37

That's it, that's what I want to do, but just down here, yeah, yeah, nice, yeah. So I guess we'll circle back. I talked about it already, but I think the wine of the week or the what we're drinking this weekend it's actually not going to come out in the vent email but we will. It'll be Mencia this week. So if I further, I just mentioned it, but you can find the best, most traditional expressions from Northwest Spain If you go inland, from where Albarino's grown and rear spices. There's a couple of areas over there. One is called Rivera Sacra, another one's called Beards.

Speaker 3: 12:09

They make different wines in the regions, but Mencia is like a medium-bodied red wine, kind of like ruby in color, medium tannins, but the. What I love so much about it is they have so much earthy character. Some have a little bit of barnyard sometime, but not really. It tends to be this like really complex forest floor, mushrooms like herbs, spiciness, backed by some nice ripe, whether it be like blackberry, sometimes cherry, like fruit component.

Speaker 3: 12:34

And then my, my favorite part about them is you can find really quality expressions for like I mean probably close to 20 bucks they used to be under 20, probably more now but really quality wines, a lot of the top producers from elsewhere in Spain, like in Roberto Duero, and some of those areas are actually coming out and building wineries there, so you can find some of the same producers making some great, great Mencia, so that'll be the wine of the week. I think it's also great with Thanksgiving. If you guys are listening to this the day before Thanksgiving, you still need a wine that your friends probably haven't heard of and will be surprised by. I recommend Mencia.

Speaker 1: 13:09

Nice, yeah, for some reason also I know it's not Mencia, but I had made me think of I guess the M made me think of Chateau Moussard getting a bottle of the other red out after all the recommendations that we had heard recently Kind of dropped my name. I was eyeballing.

Speaker 3: 13:22

Yeah, yeah, you should. I was eyeballing a bottle of 2012 white Chateau Moussard last weekend. It was at a shop. I'm still surprised that that was like 80 bucks and I was like, if I felt like buying it, that's such a good deal. It's just like the age Rioja that we find sometimes the white ones is just I'm sure. This is an amazing wine. It's way better than half the other wines here that are 80 bucks, so I'm happy they're carrying it so yeah, I compliment the guy every time. I don't buy it though.

Speaker 1: 13:48

I went to a shop the other day that had a three. Speaking of well, we're ice retoying offline about salon, but here's a three pack. There was a three pack of salon in a banded OWC but, like in the shop, on the shelf for $1,000 a bottle, which I was definitely not a buyer at that price point, but I know that was a good price. So that was like my, that was my window shopping find of the weekend in terms of value.

Speaker 3: 14:14

Nice Also for those. I we actually don't really go to Costco anymore, but for those of you who do go to Costco in the holidays they'll sometimes source like really nice wines and actually have them at really good prices. I think a couple of years ago there was a bottle of Sasakaya for I don't know. It was like 280 or something like a really good price for quality vintage. In hindsight I probably should have gotten it. I had just really started working at Vince. I didn't really know my my price points like that Well, but I should have. But anybody, keep an eye out when you're at Costco. Just cause it's there, it doesn't mean it's a cheap wine.

Speaker 1: 14:44

I'm excited to stop at the Costco when we go out to Oregon in early December, cause we don't have wine at our Costco's here, oh really. So I'm going to stop out, yeah, cause they don't sell alcohol at grocery stores in Maryland.

Speaker 4: 14:58

That's right, any out, not even wine.

Speaker 1: 15:00

Oh yeah.

Speaker 3: 15:02

Well, interesting, all right. Well, shall we get to our interview now?

Speaker 1: 15:07

Cool, yeah, sounds good. Do you want to do the intro?

Speaker 3: 15:09

Yeah, I will. I will do it. So our interview this week is Julia Harding, mw, master of Wine. For those of you who are not familiar, you may be familiar with Jances Robinson. Julia is a very close coworker, both on the website and on a lot of the most famous books that Jances is a part of. So you guys probably maybe if you didn't know her, you definitely knew the books.

Speaker 3: 15:31

A couple of the books are the Atlas to Wine, wine Grapes and, of course, the Oxford Companion to Wine, and I can't remember exactly what the formal name of the Atlas is. I think it's like the world Atlas of Wine. But what's interesting to me is it was kind of like a life, not a lifelong, a wine lifelong opportunity to speak with an icon, cause my very first wine book ever, which I'll talk about with her, was the Atlas to Wine. That was even before I liked wine, I just like maps. So I thought that was cool. And then, when I was studying for my exams, it was really important for me to have access to the Oxford Companion to Wine as well as Wine Grapes. So I would go to the library in New York and actually check them out, and I wasn't. They're expensive at the time, so you weren't allowed to take them out, so I had to sit there like Jake Gyllenhaal and read the books while I was in the library. Same library, yeah, we did not burn any for warmth. Change to the shelf.

Speaker 3: 16:19

Yeah, yeah, no day after tomorrow, whether, luckily while I was there. But it was the exact same room in the same library so I always pictured him while I was studying. But yeah, she's an amazing person. So she started out in linguistics and basically editing language books it's like how she described it and then she was just through sheer persistence she reached out to Jansen's Robinson. Over time as she got more and more into wine, she completed wine studies, kept reaching out to Jansen. Trying to work with her was helping in any way that she could eventually pass her MW and then became part of Jansen's team, both writing for the website, helping publish multiple editions, now the Oxford Companion to Wine, which the focus of this episode is on.

Speaker 3: 16:59

The fifth edition of the Oxford Companion to Wine which just came out, I highly recommend everybody get it. I think it was only like 50 bucks or so, not that that's only for some people, but it is basically the go to reference book for wine. But it's written in such an accessible manner. It's organized like a dictionary A to Z, but inside there are a longer form article or blurbs on things, pictures. Everything's written in a really unique and engaging way and all the things kind of reference other pieces in the book so you can really get a full picture of anything you're trying to learn about. And then, before I let Brady happen here, my other piece that I learned in the interview that I thought was really cool.

Speaker 3: 17:35

Was she like me? Actually? Not that I'm comparing myself to an MW, but I like she started studying more about wine because she thought she would enjoy the wine more or enjoy the process of drinking more. So she just wanted to learn more and more to enhance her enjoyment of the experience. And I think that's very much aligned with how I do it. I think for me it's more interesting to know exactly how the wine was made, where it came from, and all that behind your glass, rather than just drinking it. So I thought that was a really cool inspiration and kind of like a role model I would like to follow as well.

Speaker 1: 18:09

Yeah, and she's a real writer's writer, I think, just in terms of the way that she approaches, thinking about and presenting information around wine, especially in these volumes that we talk about in the podcast a little bit, these volumes that can get theoretical and heady and academic, especially when you're talking about an Oxford edition. That's meant to be a reference. So I really appreciate her ideas on bringing narrative into the entries that they wrote for different topics within the book. Yeah, and just building out a story around wine that anyone could pick it up, leaf through it and get immersed, which you really can't say that about every referenced book. So really appreciate the work on the Oxford Companions and just, yeah, her background. That I think makes her stand out among other wine writers in the industry, for sure, mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 18:58

Yep. So I recommend everybody go check out the Oxford Companion of Wine. Also check out the Wine Atlas and Wine Grapes. But yeah, fresh off the presses the new Oxford Companion 5th edition. Check it out.

Speaker 3: 19:10

And now, without further ado, here is our interview with Julia Harding. All right, we are here with Julia Harding, master of Wine. Thank you so much for joining today. It's a great pleasure. Yeah, no, I'm.

Speaker 3: 19:30

I know we talked about it a little bit on our introduction here, but Julia is one of the masterminds basically behind a lot of my favorite wine books in the world. So I actually have some here. I'll hold them up for the camera. But the Wine Atlas, which I have the newest edition here, was my first wine book ever.

Speaker 3: 19:47

Actually, before I even got into wine, I just liked geography and maps. And in grad school I just got an Atlas just so I could look at it. Didn't really think I liked wine yet. And then I was telling Brady earlier, and you as well, offline, that when I was in New York and actually started studying wine, I would go to the New York Library and get both the Oxford Companion, which we're here to talk about, the 5th edition today and I have as well and then also wine grapes, which is an amazing tome or I don't know if it's considered a tome, but it's an amazing piece of work. So I'm so excited to have you here. These books have been a big part of my life, so could you tell us a little bit about how you got into wine in general and how you got to be working on these books with Janis Robinson and Vy Moj for the wine grapes?

Speaker 2: 20:32

Sure, I would like to say I had one of those damascene moments with some amazing bottle of wine and my life changed completely. But I'm afraid I don't have that story to tell you. It was very much more gradual than that. I've always enjoyed wine. In my family. My father liked wine, but he didn't know that much about it. He was interested. I think he had a copy of the second edition of the World Atlas of Wine and he and my mother used to like going on holiday and bringing back the case or two of not very expensive wine just because they wanted to buy it locally. So they were by no means wine experts and they drank wine maybe once a week. So there was a little bit of background, but not a serious background. And then at university I drank wine like most people, met a few friends who knew a bit more than I did. And that actually is the pattern in meeting people who knew more than I did and thinking, oh, I'd really like to know a bit more. And the key thing underneath all was, I think, if I know more, I'll enjoy it more. So it was always about working to enjoy the wine more, being more adventurous, being able to take more risks because I knew a bit more. It was never about just knowing the information, it was always about the ulterior motive. And the ulterior motive was pleasure. That's really the story. That's the thread behind the story.

Speaker 2: 21:59

I lived in Bristol for a while in Southwest England and I started thinking I think I might do a little evening class about wine. And I went to this first class. It was for the very first level of Wine and Spirit Education Trust and I went to this class. It happened to be in the afternoon and then other people there were, people who worked at hotels, who didn't seem terribly interested, to be quite honest. And this guy started talking. He wasn't particularly charismatic but he started talking about wine and I was completely blown away and I thought, wow, this is the most amazing product under the sun. And the other interesting thing was during that course he used some of Janis Robinson's wine course episodes that had been aired on television in the UK as part of his means of presenting. I'd always been exposed to the material that Janis had produced and I used to buy the Financial Times newspaper only for her column on wine. I used to throw the rest of it away and read her column. It was that process with the Wine Spirit Education Trust courses. Then I did the next one and then I had the cheek I think is the best word to contact Janis Robinson and I wrote to her and I said I really like the way you write, I'm really interested in wine, I'd really like to meet you. Damn much to my amazement, she said yes, I went up to London from Bristol and asked her advice about how I could possibly move from working on editing educational books, which was what I'd been trained in and studied French and German University.

Speaker 2: 23:44

I'm a linguist but I edited all sorts of educational books for different publishers, and so I said how can I transfer from language teaching books to wine books? She welcomed me into a house, we had a chat and she gave me some ideas and as I left I said well, I'd really like to do his work for you. And she she's laughed and said I'm never going to employ anybody, I'm in control freak. And that was that, except we kept in touch and she actually asked me to do a job for her freelance job, which was a con was the word concentrating the Oxford companion down into a concise companion, which meant taking out about two thirds of the words. So I did that as a freelance and then I carried on doing my studies, working as an editor and eventually I got.

Speaker 2: 24:41

I got through to my diploma. I got a scholarship to work with a small supermarket chain with whom I'm a very good range of wines called waitrose, and while I was there I ran the press tastings, which meant I stayed in touch with Janssen's and they also put me through my master wine qualifications. So that was really the process from, but it was a lot to do with education, always education with a beauty pleasure and but always also that contact with Janssen's and I kept kept in, just kept in touch, always had a hope that maybe she'd change her mind, and it actually took seven years from my very first thing to her. I'd really like to work for you, to actually working for her full time. 70, seven years of perseverance and cheek.

Speaker 3: 25:28

Well, number one, that shows that persistence pays off too. So can you give us a little bit of a sense of like a time period was where you, when you went to work with her, did you go work on Janssen's Robinson com or purple pages? Was that your first kind of intro or were you specifically working with her on on the books first? How did? What was your first kind of employment with her?

Speaker 2: 25:49

When it was in I think it must have been 2004,. I just passed my master wine exams and the dissertation and I had I'd been working part time. I have to get a timeline right. There was, I was working part time on the Oxford companion, working with Janssen's, because I had that's right. I had contacted her when I passed my MW and said I hear you're doing a new edition of the Oxford companion. That was number three. Now we're on five. But this was number three.

Speaker 2: 26:26

And again I just took all my courage in my hands and said just pass my MW and would you like some help with your companion? I mean, who would say that, except somebody desperate to persuade somebody? But fortunately she said yes. So I then persuaded my employer this company weight grows to let me go part time. So I did two years part time, 2004, 2005, purely on the Oxford companion and part time working the other job. And then at the end of those two years my employers have said we don't really like this idea of part time. It's either full time or nothing. So I said to Janssen well, I have an ultimatum from my employers, what do you think? And she said, yes, come and work full time for me.

Speaker 2: 27:11

So that was December 2005. And she was just about to start work with Hugh Johnson on the next edition of the World Atlas of Wine. So I think I had two weeks off and went to Chile and Argentina for the first time on so called holiday but you know those white holidays are like and came back, started work on the Wine Atlas. But because by that time I was full time with Janssen, I was also writing on the website. So from that point on, from the end of 2005, it's always been a mixture of writing for Janssen Robinson dot com and then working on the books when the books would you needed to be revised. So it was always integrated, the two together.

Speaker 1: 27:55

I just went back up to talk about your dissertation, kind of breeze breeze past on the master of wine. Like finishing your master of wine, we take a step back and just have you tell us a little bit about what you wrote about for your final paper and sort of what went into that process.

Speaker 2: 28:14

My original idea was to compare different types of ripening, particularly on Cabernet Sauvignon. I kept hearing people marketing, people telling me that their wines from, for example, the Uca Valley high up in Argentina were so good because of the high diurnal temperature range between daytime and nighttime temperatures. So I began to wonder is it actually better, or is it just that you can't make great wine if it's really hot all the time? She's got an equitable climate, such as Bordeaux, is that as good or better than one with a high diurnal temperature range? So I presented this idea to the Institute of Masters of Wine and they said oh no, it's much too complicated, you can't do that. You'll never get it done in 10,000 words under six months or nine months.

Speaker 2: 29:12

Unfortunately, I'd already done a bit of research. I've been to California, I'd been to visit Paul Draper Ruge, done some research in Bordeaux into Argentina and had to completely change the plan and unfortunately I had to do something much more boring. So I looked at the question of different types of wines produced in the Loire Valley, much easier to get to from the UK, and how they got to market in the UK. So it was a much more of a marketing distribution wine style question rather than a technical one. But I suppose it was more manageable perhaps to accept. It was maybe more chance of passing than the really complicated right anyone. But that's interesting.

Speaker 1: 29:57

Well, have you come back to that question since then? Do you have any long form rating on that topic?

Speaker 2: 30:03

Yeah, so I mean, I think it requires a book and a lot more time and more time than I've got on top of the day job, but it's always in the back of my mind, yeah.

Speaker 3: 30:19

Yeah, I agree, I think it certainly is to properly flesh it out and explore even the nuances between so many regions that grow Cabernet 70 on now. So so many people try or less of it grows well there or not. So I think that would be heavy Fascinating. Well, we'll stay tuned for that one. Well, do we want to pivot a little bit now that we have a sense of your background? Actually, I have one question before we get on to the Oxford the fifth edition of the Companion to Wine, how was? Well, I guess you can't say if you have a favorite, but how was writing wine grapes? And is a William Moe's as cool as he sounds? From all the interviews and stuff that I've heard, he sounds like the coolest guy to hang out with or work with.

Speaker 2: 31:02

Absolutely yes. I think we made quite an interesting trio. The really amazing thing was that in the period of four years that it took us to write the book, because there's such a big difference starting from scratch and doing a new edition this was starting from scratch. Nobody had ever written a book of that length and depth before. In that period of four years I think we were in the same room twice. All the rest of the communication was by email. Well, we had an initial meeting to discuss it.

Speaker 2: 31:40

The original idea that Jose had was to do something like the top 20 grape varieties and gradually that morphed into every single grape variety being commercially made into wine and bottled and sold commercially. It was quite a gestation of the idea. The best thing about working the three of us together was that we all had our strengths. I would say Jose was brilliant and all the DNA also very good on researching the etymology of wine names and the family relationships. Then between us, chances and I would cover where it was grow, what the wines were like. We'd also pull in Jose's experience because we had the three of us out all of our tasting experience, produce, wines that we tasted and just bringing all three different networks of connections, tasting experiences, travel experiences made a really strong team. We all had a very clear role that we had within that team. But yeah, jose is very cool. He's got very cool hats.

Speaker 3: 32:50

That's awesome. I'll have to try to find some photos of him now. Cool, well, I will think of him now with hats on when I read the book, but cool. So let's get to the Oxford Companion to Wine, 5th edition. Something I didn't realize when I first even started reading this is that there are other Oxford Companions to other things. So could you explain briefly to our audience, since they're mostly an American audience, what the Oxford Companion to anything is, and then what it is for wine and what the main goal of it is?

Speaker 2: 33:23

I can't tell you which the first Oxford Companions were, but they probably were things like English literature, music, philosophy. There's now a lot of Oxford Companions to something. There's classical literature, american literature, law, american law, world mythology, food, cheese. There's all sorts of topics. Now I've become a much bigger series, but it's really. I think it takes the idea of the authoritativeness of the Oxford English Dictionary and brings a subject matter into that idea of depth and breadth and a detailed, accurate authority on a particular topic. But the other key thing and that's key to the Oxford Companion is the contributors. We can't write this book without the contributors. They are our gold, if you like. Some of the entries would be written by the editors and in this edition I've just mentioned this edition Janice handed the baton to me to be the lead editor.

Speaker 2: 34:41

She was still strongly involved. She covered about 10% and covered certain topics that she wanted to do. And then for this edition, for the first time we brought on board Tara Thomas, who was the executive editor of Wine and Friess for, I think, nearly 25 years. What we really appreciated was not only Tara's expertise as an editor but also her perspective being a North American, a North American with a European passion. I'll probably say she's a very, she's probably a fairly European North American, but she's still a North American and has all of the understanding Living there.

Speaker 2: 35:26

The language that was a big thing Between me and Tara. I was making sure that we understood each other and I didn't use any English, british English language that I might. Between this, janice and I on a previous edition might not have realised that something we were saying was very British and Tara would say what does that mean? We don't say that, and vice versa. So I hope very much that one of the other one of the things that we really gained with Tara apart from her great network of contacts, the brilliant way she's managed all their geographic lectures is her North American perspective and I think that's made the book much more international, less British, maybe, or less European. Was that the question? Did I answer the question?

Speaker 3: 36:17

Yeah, that was perfect. No, I think that was. I hadn't really thought about that. I've leafed through and read a number of entries so far and I thought they were really approachable and I did notice more of a geographical focus and we have some questions coming up on that. So I think that makes sense. Can you maybe?

Speaker 2: 36:36

just Just to go back to the question of what a companion is, I think one thing that we've tried to do is to bring balanced coverage, but without it being so balanced it's bland and dull. So we try to keep a voice, an editorial voice and sometimes the contributors have their own voices, depending on their first language but trying to bring that authoritative approach, but without it being dry and dull. And one of the other keys, I think, to this book is the cross-references, and I believe those are used in other companions, because it's such a complex, interwoven subject wine there are so many entries where you really need to look at something else in order to understand that entry and you can't keep repeating yourself. So it's a really tightly knit book with references to all sorts of entries, and it takes you on a wild goose chase around the book. Sometimes you start reading one entry and two hours later you think how did I get here and you've just been following cross-references.

Speaker 3: 37:51

Oh, 100%. I think I've probably told my fiance a number of times that's. One of my only qualms with the book is when you pick it up to look up one thing to your exact point, you end up way away from what you were originally looking up and then by the time you're done, you're like you forgot the answer to the first thing you were looking up in the first place. But it's so cool because everything is so interesting when you start diving in and there are things that you would never have thought were related. I will say so. Can we take one step back, though? So the Oxford Companion to Wine, I think I read a description saying it was trying to organize it like a dictionary but have the editorial components and kind of the descriptions like an encyclopedia. So it's really a book that's meant to not only touch on a range of topics and be a reference guide, but also give you additional color and insight into whatever the topic you want to learn more about. Is that kind of a succinct way to describe it?

Speaker 2: 38:44

Yeah, I think that's a very good way to describe it. It's trying to. We've tried to cover every aspect of wine in the wine world. I'm not saying we've succeeded. We try, and every addition brings in new things which they could be. Something has changed or it could be we suddenly think, oh, we should have printed this in the last edition. And every addition gets better and better. I poured Janssen's on the first edition. She was working with 800 blank pages. Can you imagine starting with that and what's more? No email. Everything came in on fax or paper post and I think I believe there was somebody at Oxford University Press who transcribed things and sent them to Janssen's and she was working on some sort of rudimentary word process. So I think trying to do that now would be. We have such a luxury of the internet email. So, yes, it's getting broader and deeper, but then the difficulty is you don't have limitless pages. You have to keep it concise.

Speaker 1: 39:59

Kelly, I think one thing that when you look at a book that's mainly Most wine books that are mainly used for reference there's sometimes a component of miss the storytelling, and so I think the combination of this is a dictionary, this is also an editorial and you have those kind of like blurbs and outtakes and almost like mini essays Incredibly helpful with weaving sort of the total story together, because if you lose context of a story and you only focus on facts, especially in something like wine, you miss the whole picture.

Speaker 2: 40:38

Oh, exactly, and that's why we have the topics in the book are chili, viticulture, wine making, packaging, people, brands, history. It tries to be the world of wine rather than the sort of book you might read if you were studying for an exam Although I believe that a lot of students like myself use it for exams or use it for exams but we really hope that it's readable enough and, as you say, it has the stories about people and what they do and what's changing and why, so that it's not just a reference book. It's actually one that you want to read and that's why you keep going from entry to entry, because you think, oh, I'd really like to know about yeast. And then you read and then you think, oh no, I'm fine, we'd like to know about something else. And it just takes you on and then it takes you to a country you don't stick with viticulture or wine making. It takes you around the world of wine, which I think makes it more readable and enjoyable.

Speaker 1: 41:42

Well, it helps you introduce readers to, especially talking about new regions, new countries who maybe are coming into the spotlight, because you can say we know these stories of the producers and their wines and the legacy of their labels. Here there's also something very similar going on in another country. Let me take you there and you can tie everything together that way. Otherwise, it's just in Germany. They do this, in Estonia Now they're doing that. So, yeah, I really like that. I think it's a good way to bring people, like you said, a tour of around the world.

Speaker 3: 42:17

The other piece I think is interesting. When you're studying for an exam I would say like your earliest exams you learn a little bit about wine and you think you know everything. And then there's now that common saying the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. I think this book is the epitome of that, because you're like, ah, yes, like I want to look up this answer to tell somebody. And then you're like, ah, crap. And then by the time you're trying to explain what the answer is, you're like well, there's 40 things I didn't know, so I'm less equipped, but no, I love that.

Speaker 3: 42:45

I think Brady's been the victim of some of those things. He asked me a simple question and then I give him the Oxford companion. But the rundown, the rabbit hole answer Last year, can we? Well, I want to talk about what's new in this edition and what you guys kind of like focused on a little bit. But first I still want to know the contributors. I think there's like over a hundred. Is that right? Like, how do you find these people? How are they selected? And then, yeah, I don't know how does it all come together in the end there?

Speaker 2: 43:15

Well, for this edition the total number of contributors is 267, of which 100 are new to the fifth edition. Janssen started out with a certain number of contributors I don't honestly know how many were in the first edition and then for every subsequent edition there'd be a consideration of for the existing entries. Is that contributor still at the top of their game? Are they still working in that field or is there somebody else we'd like to refer to? And generally speaking, we would go back to previous contributors. Sometimes they'd say I think you should talk to Sirenz and not me anymore. But new entries, or if we felt that energy needed bigger update, we would use whereas again, it's a bit like the Wine Grape's look, there's three editors with very broad experience and many connections and many people, no networks. There would be our own experience. There would then be a process of research.

Speaker 2: 44:22

So suppose, for example, I was writing an entry on underwater aging. It was a new entry and so I would research, look who was doing it, who else? I knew some people already, but I didn't know everybody, and I would contact them. Their feelings were, and if I'd discovered that they'd done some scientific research, I could get that information from them. And then I found an academic in Burgundy who'd also looked at some of this topic and then I would contact him.

Speaker 2: 44:54

It's a combination of the people we know, people we've come across, and then research into who's writing about this, who is at the top of the game, who is really and, for geographical entries, who is on the ground. Ideally and that's, I think, really improved this edition We've had more local people rather than one person doing a whole area. North America is a really good example. California we had it's divided up and better covered by more people than one person trying to cover the whole thing, which is the area to cover. It's partly the people we already know and then the research that we do to try and find people who are. They could be academics, they could be practitioners, winemakers, viticulturists, so-called viticulturists, journalists, historians just about anybody who is the expert in that topic.

Speaker 3: 45:53

Yeah, I think I'm a sucker for wine history, so I love that component of this as well. Another wine history book I'm still working my way through Hugh Johnson's story of wine. I listened to it in snippets and I've been listening to it for almost a year now. I still have 11 hours left, but I'm in the 1700s now. It's great. So you've touched on a little bit of the new regions, or regions. Let's talk about that, some of the newer ones that are included in the book, and then maybe, if you want to add a little bit of color, about, I don't know maybe the climate change aspect or how some of these regions have they traditionally grown grapes? Is it just now possible? Are they marginal? And now they're coming on?

Speaker 2: 46:29

Yeah, maybe, yeah, I think you suggested linking it with climate change. That's definitely true of some of the new wine regions, but actually there's an awful lot of updates and changes that are related to climate change, not just new regions, but, taking that first, for example, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania in the past they mainly done fruit wines. They haven't really had the climate to ripen grapes fully. And an interesting example is Norway had about two sentences in the last edition and now has two really full paragraphs. Their climate change has allowed producers to go, or creative people who just really want to make wine to move further north, Also higher up. We've got more about higher elevation when going in Bhutan and Peru, for example. In Europe, Brittany in France was really too cool before.

Speaker 2: 47:34

There's a lot of regions that are developing because of climate change, but there's a lot of other entries that have changed or needed new entries because of climate change that are to do with viticulture and winemaking. There's climate change and regions. There's also our response to climate change, For example, sustainability entries, regenerative viticulture entry, carbon footprint of wine, all these sort of things, geo textiles to help in really cold climates it's not just the heat Different grape varieties being developed, moving to new regions because they cope better with drought or heat. There's an awful lot of entries, as well as the entries that actually about climate, that turn into the changing environmental world we live in, but also our response to it as I said, sustainability and then you'd have entries about packaging, which are also related to sustainability, which goes back to the environment. There are so many, In the same way that the book is so interconnected. Many of the changes in the wine world are interconnected as well.

Speaker 3: 48:54

Brady, did you want to hop in there? I feel like I've been monopolizing the conversation.

Speaker 2: 49:00

Just going back to the question of new regions, we've also got new entries on some African countries Gabon, senegal, uganda and there I don't think it's really anything to do with climate change, it's just to do with people's creativity and ingenuity. They think why don't we make wine here? We just want to make sure that we are aware of what people are doing, and I remember somebody just mentioning it to me and I thought oh great, let's make wine in Gabon, and so sometimes it's just lucky that we've heard about it, because you don't always really come across some of these countries' winemaking. So it's not entirely climate change but, to be honest, most of the changes in the book are related to it in terms of regions, but also things like pests and diseases. Ps disease has for all time been a big problem in Southern California and in recent years it's been found in olive trees in Southern Europe and now also, unfortunately, in New Yorker in vines. That again is related, I think, but I believe to be related, to climate change, also to globalization, the way that everything gets taken everywhere there are no borders anymore but where diseases are spread, and then the other aspect would be then you have to think about entries to talk about how you control diseases, and that goes in could be in two directions. It could be breeding great varieties that will adapt better to, will be more resistant to pests and diseases. They have better resistance, for example, to powdery mildew, downy mildew in particular. And then you've got the varieties that are particularly red, the so-called Peewe varieties.

Speaker 2: 50:56

That requires an extension in the book of those. They were covered a bit before, but we had to expand that because that's a big area of research. It's almost impossible to tear apart the topics and to explain why one area is updated because there's so many connections. And then you've got all the way. People change their drinking styles, whether they want to drink alcohol, wine, and the language that they use. We didn't have an entry before on glue glue. We have a glue-glue entry for gluggable, easy drinking wines, so it's also in language. Another entry, a new one, is celebrity wine. I mean, that's got nothing to do with climate change, but nobody talked about celebrity wine 10 years ago. Sorry, I'm going off at tangent, pal, I'll hand it back to you.

Speaker 1: 51:44

That's all right. Well, I mean the first question that came to mind as you were talking, but now I want to talk about celebrity wine. The first question that I had was of these. Maybe, when new regions come online or you explore the practices in a place like Gabon or Senegal or even Uganda, do you notice any sort of similarities as these emerging regions come online, in terms of, maybe, similarities in the challenges that they face, or is that all different and varied? Or do you see any similarities in terms of what sort of demand is driving interest in those areas? For instance, one type of drinker is really increasing in terms of consumption and the wines of a particular emerging region sort of suit that demographic. Or what can you say about the similarities of the ones that are emerging in this space right now?

Speaker 2: 52:39

I would say the main driver is individuals who think why do we make? We could make one here. Most of the obstacles would be climatic. I would say water heat or in some areas so, for example, this isn't a new area, but Thailand humidity and having to manage whether you have two crops a year or one crop a year. So I think the challenges would be almost entirely climatic. I wouldn't. I don't think the market question is the biggest question with these new areas. I don't think, as everybody's saying, oh, why really want?

Speaker 2: 53:15

to buy a wine from Uganda. I think it's more coming from individuals who think we could really make. We could make good wine here.

Speaker 1: 53:22

So it's more about maybe like opportunity and then the resources to take action in those areas. So has there been more outside investment? Or I'm just wondering who's in Senegal, for instance, sitting around on Monday saying, oh, we should start growing grapes, then starts doing that on Friday? Is there outside capital coming in? Or is there really like a grassroots movement in some of these countries to pick? Up and start exploring that.

Speaker 2: 53:52

I think. I don't think you can generalize. I think it's a bit of both. There may be a grassroots, but you need some investment, or some investment either financially or in terms of expertise in viticulture. I know that some of the work done in tropical climates has been really supported by two guys who are from Gaisenheim in Germany, so you might be investing knowledge as well as finances, but I think there's a one answer to that question it's very much local to the area.

Speaker 3: 54:27

I wonder if timing, just in a geopolitical realm, is having an impact too, because I imagine that some of these countries that maybe got post-colonial era got their independence in the middle 1900s, 1900s. Sometimes maybe there was a pushback against wine and now it's been long enough where it's viewed as something they could own rather than something that people who previously came and might have brought it. I wonder if that's a potential impact in maybe some of the African countries at least.

Speaker 2: 54:53

I think it could be. I don't think I know enough to really say that for each of those I don't know enough about the country and that a fairly restricted entry about the winemaking doesn't really I haven't got the history I'd like to say the colonial history to answer that.

Speaker 3: 55:12

Yeah, me neither. But now you have me thinking and I'm like maybe there's these amazing Grand Cru parcels that we just don't know about because nobody's ever found them. They're going to come online. That would be amazing. So I'll let Brady ask his celebrity question. But I will say in our area with I live in Los Angeles and where I am, there's a lot of these quote unquote natural wine bars and there is actually a wine just called glue glue and it's so funny how people that I had learned the term just by reading in my studies, but now it's almost common vernacular amongst people who don't even really drink wine what glue glue is, and I just think it's hilarious. So I think it's definitely necessary for the companion, because you have non-serious wine drinkers walking around asking for glue glue at restaurants. So I think that's hilarious.

Speaker 2: 55:58

But it's interesting though, because I don't think it's quite as common in the UK as it is in the US.

Speaker 3: 56:05

Yeah Well, also, you guys have the term quaffable, and I don't think anybody here understands that. But when they want something that's easy to drink without thinking, they say like glue, glue or something like that.

Speaker 1: 56:17

Yeah, my celebrity wine question. Just wonder what the perspectives were that you guys, because I haven't seen that section in the book yet. What can you share with the audience, sort of what was the approach to first, why did you include a section on celebrity wines and what was the approach to providing information in that space and what's the kind of perspective shared?

Speaker 2: 56:42

You know, every time we finish a book, an edition of the Oxford Companion, as soon as the text goes to the printer I'd start a file about corrections or updates for the next edition. So for about eight years I'm compiling this massive document that we then have to go through at the beginning of the next edition. So we would go through. We have a list of all the headwords of the previous edition on a spreadsheet with who the contributor was, how many words it was, and then we have to go through and think are there any entries that we don't want to keep? Which is where? But it happens. And then what are the new entries?

Speaker 2: 57:34

But then I have to go through this document and think are there any areas in here that need to be in the book? And that would be things that I've read about or we've read about or heard about. And so if something has become currency in the language, like celebrity wine, and it's something that's become more common, then it's something that has to go in the book, because that's what it's, a phrase that people use. So that's how it came about. And then we just look around and see who's doing it.

Speaker 1: 58:09

Yeah, I think we've had, I guess, a couple of different conversations at different times on the podcast about both influence that celebrity wine, celebrity quote, unquote wine makers or celebrity back labels have on the industry and people's perception maybe of a region or a certain variety. I guess this is mostly a phenomenon in terms of the coverage in the companion in North America. Is that right, or is this something that also see a lot of in Europe as well?

Speaker 2: 58:44

I think it would be dominated by North America. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 58:47

Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah. There are definitely some quote unquote celebrity wines who are really advancing a region and a variety forward in new markets and then there are others who that's very obviously just like a branding deal or some kind of cash grab that way and not really taking the wine that seriously.

Speaker 2: 59:08

I think it's mostly a branding deal, but they're some where they actually care about wine.

Speaker 1: 59:14

Yeah, of course.

Speaker 2: 59:16

These are good things. Celebrity wine.

Speaker 1: 59:19

I think insofar as it gets more people to drink wine, whatever the quality, I think that's the first step right. Get more people to drink bad wine or wine at all, right, and then eventually they can. Yeah, progress through. So I guess that's the 10,000 foot view is as long as more people are drinking, it's good. On the other hand, sometimes those labels can overshadow other smaller producers, maybe with less capital or less distribution, because of follower status or celebrity or things like that, and so that can maybe be a shame in certain regions. But I think at the end of the day, in terms of quality in the wine world as experts and enthusiasts, quality on the long term will rise to the top. So I'm not as concerned about that and I think so probably the positive of more people drinking likely outweighs it a bit for me.

Speaker 2: 1:00:17

Ben, you made me. I've just remembered one of the entries that we did take out which is quite interesting to the person. It was Krita labels. Do you remember Krita labels?

Speaker 1: 1:00:31

Krita. It started off with yellow.

Speaker 3: 1:00:34

Yeah, like Yellowtail has a kangaroo.

Speaker 2: 1:00:36

Oh yeah. Yeah, out of the Yellowtail and it was a whole rash of animals and they were very popular. Maybe they were their predecessors of celebrity wine.

Speaker 1: 1:00:47

Interesting, it's funny.

Speaker 2: 1:00:49

I agree it's good to get people drinking wine, but I also think it's a shame if they stick with the celebrity wine and don't bring out.

Speaker 2: 1:00:56

But then I think that's a shame with any incidents where someone just always drinks the same wine and doesn't have the confidence or is encouraged to try something different. Because for me, the best thing about wine is its diversity and the fact that I never, ever try everything. And if I limited myself to one or two wines, I think that would be a shame. I'd be depriving myself of huge amount of pleasure, and I feel that for people who do stick with one or two celebrity wines, I think it's great to try them, but just don't stick with them.

Speaker 1: 1:01:31

I think there's probably a factor around pricing that's at play there, because they don't know anyone who is drinking, just say, $75 celebrity wine and that's all they drink, right? So maybe celebrity wines maybe are $25 and below or $30 and below, maybe they're only drinking in that space, but it's hard for smaller producers to compete at some of those price points, depending on the variety and region and stuff. But it's hard for smaller producers to compete at those price points. And so I feel like the only hope is that that consumer gets more interested and then also maybe increases the amount that they're willing to spend on a particular wine to actually get them out of that celebrity wine funk or the pattern of only drinking those wines, like you're saying. I do agree that it's not where you want people to stay, but yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:02:26

Yeah, that's an introduction. That's great, agreed. I don't know if you've heard of the book Wine Wars, wine Wars 1 and 2. This guy, mike Vasseth, v-e-s-e-t-h. He goes in, he's up the wine economists and he goes into the nuances of celebrity wines. It's also, I think, he touches on the critter labels and he says there's two camps in wine the terroirists, who are like you need to be appreciating wine and enjoying it and telling the full story. Where it's like. There's the other camp who's just trying to get more people to drink wine in general and then that's better for the macro wine industry. It's interesting. You could go on.

Speaker 3: 1:03:02

Obviously he wrote two books about this, so I think it's it could go on forever. I'd recommend it. If people want more reading on that topic outside of, get your Oxford companion to wine and then add this as a supplement. He also has not wanted to come on the podcast. So, mike, if you're listening, come on For the pivoting looking forward now a little bit, since we're going to get close here on time and we don't want to keep you too long. Over the next five to 10 years, what trends are you seeing now that you expect to snowball and grow? Is there anything you're seeing now that you think might peter out and not really be worthy of noting as much in the next version of the Oxford companion.

Speaker 2: 1:03:41

I think the trends that we're seeing now some of them we've touched upon, which is the need for greater sustainability in that word is used very vaguely, but I guess I'm talking about better stewardship of the land, attempts made to, for example, to increase carbon sequestration, carbon capture implementation, for example, reducing the cost of transport by using bulk packaging, bulk transport, lighter packaging I think all those things are going to continue because that's the way our world is moving and we've got to keep combating the effects of climate change. I think also, the development of great varieties that have better resistance to diseases, fungal diseases in particular. I think I'm not sure how well they will do Because they're not genetically modified. They're typically using genetic technology, but not genetic modification, for their bread over many years to incorporate a little bit of the genetics of a non-veniferous, a bit of venerable variety. I think all those techniques will be more and more important because we will have to have great varieties that cope better with climate change. Also, I think, better understanding of what grows where, what can grow where, the moving of maybe some varieties from really hot or Mediterranean climates that could grow outside of those regions that are well adapted to drought and heat, that sort of thing Moving when you're planting planting in cooler regions, different innovation, different north basing in the northern hemisphere, for example, especially south basing All these things I think they will increase.

Speaker 2: 1:05:43

Also, I mean consumption trends. People are drinking less generally. Consumption is going down. There's in the news at the moment is all the neat in southern France and Bordeaux, for example. Pull up vineyards. There's too much capacity, there's more wine available and there is this and being drunk. So all these things are going to play into how people drink, what people drink.

Speaker 2: 1:06:10

For us, all the things we haven't talked about is health and lower alcohol, or even no alcohol wines. I think those are going to continue more as a greater emphasis than ever, I think, on people's awareness of their health and alcohol, and that's something that I think we'll need more and more careful investigation, because it's very, very difficult to assess all of the information you hear and all of the research that's done into wine and health. It's a lot of. It seems contradictory and quite difficult to pull together. I think that would be another side of things.

Speaker 2: 1:06:44

I hope maybe also growing continuing interest in local, small rather than big conglomerate type wine companies. I think that's maybe that's more of a hope than an expectation, and then continuing to fight against diseases that are really spreading, like trunk diseases, like for the, really causing problems in everywhere but huge areas of Europe that are struggling with ESCA, and whether you have to pull out the vineyard, replant, whether you can cut out the dead wood. All these sort of research, finding the best solutions, all these things will inform updates. It's an ever ending job. As soon as you finish one edition, you've got to start revising it for the next edition.

Speaker 1: 1:07:37

You could do a companion on each region and still update it every year.

Speaker 2: 1:07:43

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:07:44

Yeah, julie, thanks so much for coming on and chatting with us. I think there's probably, like I said, we could go section by section and break down, yeah, the entire companion. I appreciate all the work that you've done, both in supporting other writers and also yourself, and putting together such a wealth of information out there. Hopefully more wine drinkers graduate to digesting this kind of material, and not even graduate, but see it as something that's accessible for themselves to continue their wine journey.

Speaker 2: 1:08:16

Well, I hope so, and I hope people think of it as it looks quite daunting. But it's actually something you can dip in and out or you don't have to read it from cover to cover. You can take little steps into a big book. Yeah, that's the first part.

Speaker 3: 1:08:32

Dipping in and then staying there accidentally for an hour. Also, you guys have the Oxford companion, if you want just quick research on the website as well. On Janice Robinson, that's my on the go version when I can't bring the book with me everywhere. Also, I think I don't know if I'm as much in the last version I didn't compare page to page but there's a lot of beautiful visuals in this version too, and helpful, helpful things to give further color to things. I think that's really also a huge benefit for anybody trying to learn. So yeah, again, thank you so much for joining and appreciate your time.

Speaker 2: 1:09:05

Thank you, I've been joined talking to you All right?

Speaker 3: 1:09:16

That was our interview with Julia Harding. I hope everybody got a little bit of insight into how these books are made, how many people and how much time actually goes into creating something so thorough and extensive. And she's already hard at work on the sixth edition, which, don't worry if you get this one, they don't come out for a number of years at a time, so you'll be good for many years. But you should go get the fifth edition Now. I have it. It's beautiful, highly recommended. But yeah, that is our episode for this week. We'll be back with another interview and another episode next week. Cheers.

Speaker 4: 1:09:54

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